Ask the Experts: ISI Coach Xan and USFS Coach Ice Coach – What’s the Diference between ISI and USFS?

Remember in high school when the cheerleaders didn’t socialize with the pom-pom girls, when the marching band members and the orchestra musicians didn’t mix, and when the chess team looked down on the debate team?

Looking back, it’s silly, isn’t it?

But you also have to wonder: do we ever really graduate from high school?

A figure skating parent wrote me about some drama at her rink. This reader’s rink has two paths to learn figure skating ISI (Ice Skating Institute) and USFS (U.S. Figure Skating). ISI is considered a more recreational organization than USFS because, well, that’s the ISI’s stated mission, to promote recreational ice skating programs.

On the other hand, USFS is the official rule-making body of figure skating in the U.S. Unlike the ISI, USFS want to not only promote figure skating as a sport, but also they want to promote achievement. At an ISI competition, everyone gets a medal. At USFS National Championships, the USFS gives out medals to just the top four competitiors and they decide who goes on to represent the U.S. in big-deal figure skating events you see on TV.

The reader wrote that a parent of an ISI skater didn’t understand why her daughter wasn’t progressing as quickly as the USFS skaters and going to Regionals or Junior Nationals like other skaters at the rink.

The reader wrote:

Too many times I hear coaches lamenting that a child didn’t get into the USFS training path soon enough, but spent too much time in ISI.

I can’t tell you if ISI or USFS is better than one or the other. The rinks where we live are all USFS. So, like with the cheerleader/pom squad drama, I have no idea which one is better, prettier, or more spirited.

Here’s what I do know about the two groups:

Organization:
USFS is the governing body of figure skating and is made up of member clubs. Its mission is to promote figure skating and achievement within the sport.

ISI’s members are rinks, rink owners, suppliers, builders, coaches, skaters, and pretty much anyone else who has an interest in promoting recreational ice skating – both figure skating and hockey.

Coaches:
USFS requires its coaches to be Professional Skaters Association (PSA) members in good standing. PSA members must take professional development classes and tests to prove their knowledge of the sport. USFS requires a background check for its coaches and won’t allow coaches who have not passed the background check to coach at any USFS event or competition. (Thank you, Ice Coach, for catching my error – USFS requires the background check, not PSA. Readers, I’ve corrected it.)

ISI has coaches fill out a membership form. The form asks the coaches to swear that they’ve never been accused or convicted of sexual misconduct and to sign the form. No background check is needed. Many ISI coaches are PSA members and complete its training program.

Events:
USFS requires that all coaches who participate in events be PSA members. ISI members can participate in USFS competitions, exhibitions, and other events, but the ISI skater’s coach must be on the PSA’s green light coaching list.

ISI welcomes all USFS coaches and skaters to their events and competitions.

It’s interesting to note that many big-name skaters started out in ISI. From the ISI’s Web site:

Ice Skating Institute salutes the 2010 Olympic figure skaters! Did you know that gold medalist Evan Lysacek was an ISI skater? Other 2010 Olympians who share an ISI history are Mirai Nagasu, Rachael Flatt, Emily Samuelson, Caydee Denney, Jeremy Barrett and Amanda Evora.
(February 26 at 5:18pm)

ISI and USFS: the College Course

From advisory board member Xan, of Xanboni!. Xan is an ISI coach, PSA member, the parent of a Junior Nationals participant/current ice show skater, and an adult skater.

Xan (right) and her daughter are teaching an ISI group class

Because ISI is the recreational and USFS is the competitive track, there is a common misperception that USFS is “better” than ISI. In fact, although the skills at each level are set up differently, in fact the passing standards are identical. An axel is an axel is an axel. In fact, through the axel, even the testing is similar. Here’s how it works:

ISI

You can progress through the levels in class only using just the in class tests. However, if you want to compete ISI, you must pass every test, starting with Alpha, through the level you want to compete in. Through FS6 you arrange these tests with your home rink, but testing must be done by an ISI professional member, i.e. a coach.

For FS7 and 8 you must be tested at a “district” session by multiple ISI judges. Freestyle 9 and 10 must be approved by ISI HQ; formerly you could only take these tests at one of their national events, but I believe they have now instituted both a video option and a district option.

Every single skill that is tested in USFS is also tested in ISI, with identical technical requirements. Rinks that want their skaters to do well in competition do not give them any “oh it’s only ISI” passes.

The hardest test in figure skating is not USFS Senior, it is ISI FS10. You must demonstrate in isolation 7 skills including two triples, four axels in a row or a reverse axel, a death drop, two spins, and complex footwork, among other things. THEN you have to put them all in a four minute program immediately afterwards. That’s about 15 minutes of flat out skating at a senior international level. Olympics? pffff.

USFS

USFS starts its test track higher up the scale, with most kids waiting until they actually have an Axel to start testing. The first level-Pre-Preliminary-is considered an “encouragement” level. You have to screw up pretty badly to not pass a PrePre, and it’s usually blamed on the coach. (Such is life.)

The biggest difference between USFS and ISI tests is that USFS is tested by certified judges, who are not allowed to also be coaches, theoretically eliminating bias. Starting with the second of the 8 levels, there are 3 judges and you must pass 2, again, a protection against bias (or inattention). In order to compete at a USFS qualifying competition you must have completed the necessary tests for your level. (Just like ISI)

Rather than ISI striving to become more like USFS, in fact, it’s the other way around. USFS recently instituted a huge expansion of its Basic Skills program, i.e. their version of Learn to Skate, which takes kids from marching on the ice through Axel. After Axel they switch you over to the test or competitive tracks through their Bridge program. Theoretically if you’ve completed all the Basic Skills and Free Skate classes you’re ready to test PrePre moves and Freestyle, but I’ve never seen this work in practice. At any rate, all the skills and patterns from PrePre are included in the Basic Skills and FS curricula. USFS has also encouraged rinks and clubs to increase the number of Basic Skills competitions. Level assignment at these is essentially coach’s discretion, based on what the skater is good at. To compete at test-level qualifying and non-qualifying competitions you must take the proper USFS tests. For non-quals the sponsoring club sets the levels; for Regionals etc (the qualifying competitions) USFS sets the levels.

USFS and PSA

From Ice Coach, of IceCoach.net. Ice Coach is a USFS coach and a PSA Member. She has a Pomeranian who does not skate.

I have always been USFS so it’s hard for me to compare it with ISI.
USFS has a wonderful Basic Skills program. The levels are Snowplow Sam though Freestyle 6. Freestyle 6 takes you though Axel, but I agree with Xan – it doesn’t prepare you for your first Pre-Preliminary test. The levels do go though some of the required moves, but most people would want a private coach before they start USFS testing. USFS Senior FS test now includes a double Axel, but no triples yet.

USFS and PSA are doing a wonderful job teaming up and requiring continuing education coarses. The deadline for coaches is this June! There are many other ratings that are optional to obtain through PSA. I think its great the PSA and USFS are working together and requiring CER’s (certified education requirements) I mean anyone can coach. Parents usually don’t ask what experience a coach has or if they have any ratings. Do you know if your coach has ratings? At least PSA and USFS are putting in a minimum standard.

USFS requires the background check not PSA as Ice Mom stated. Whoops. [Thank you, Ice Coach, for the good catch! I corrected it.] Although they do work together on the issue, the USFS is actually the one who you go through to take the background test and you won’t get a registration card until you do so. If you don’t get a registration card, you can’t coach at qualifying competitions. Basic Skills competitions are starting to check cards too, but a lot don’t.

So, readers, let’s share the knowledge! How can people avoid ISI v. USFS drama at the rink? Let’s start a dialogue. We can all be friends, can’t we?

Do you have a question for Ice Mom or the Advisory Board? Do you have a suggestion for a post? Are you an expert and want to share your knowledge with parents? That’s great! I love e-mail, so send me one at icemom.diane@gmail.com. JVNCA2N97JBQ

Helicopter Mom

This was a very confusing issue for me since our rink (and skating school) are ISI, but the skating club (which has sessions and competitions at the rink) is USFSA. We joined ISI first (because we had to for a competition) and then did a club Christmas skating show, in which the “entry fee” included the dues to USFSA. So my daughter was covered on both ends, although at that point she only did ISI competitions. I think we started off that way because it was possible to enter the competition without a private coach or a program – they had test maneuvers to start off, so since that’s what she was learning in class, it made a lot of sense. But once she started working with her coach, he explained that in his experience, if a skater has done a lot of ISI competitions, they can get very used to coming in first place and it can be unnecessarily discouraging when they start doing USFSA competitions and find themselves in 7th place out of 10 or 12 skaters. Which may actually be VERY good considering the experience and level of their competitors. So I let my daughter get her two first place medals in ISI and then we switched completely over to USFSA. Some of her friends don’t understand but for us, it HAS been easier to look at it all in perspective this way. Her first competition last season she came in last place, because it was her first time at that level and she had two falls – the next time she skated it, she came in 6th or 7th and had NO falls. If she were really accustomed to coming in first, those would have felt like failures but because she knows the competition is harder in USFSA she can appreciate the progress and has started to look at things like 6th place out of 12 is top half!

But, that said – ISI is GREAT for the recreational skaters who don’t want to go to Regionals or farther. Plenty of little girls (and boys) just want to wear a costume and skate to the music. They don’t want to practice 5 days a week, they don’t want to skate in the morning, they don’t want to sacrifice their personal lives to skating. It’s great that ISI is there for them.

But it is weird when there is an ISI competition at our rink or in the area and for the next two weeks, the mothers (it’s always the mothers – rarely the kids!) go on and on about their skater’s first place medals, looking pitying on us moms who are so pleased with “9th place but she didn’t fall!!”, “4th place and she got to skate her short program!” or “last place but she just moved up to that level and by God, she just kept on going, even after the falls!” It’s a good lesson in keeping my eyes on myself and my skater and not on other people. Either they will move to USFSA and finally understand the difference or they will go on believing that their child has the talent (and the 1st place medals) to go to the Olympics and have just chosen not to. I just keep smiling and saying “Congratulations!!”
Helicopter Mom

This was a very confusing issue for me since our rink (and skating school) are ISI, but the skating club (which has sessions and competitions at the rink) is USFSA. We joined ISI first (because we had to for a competition) and then did a club Christmas skating show, in which the “entry fee” included the dues to USFSA. So my daughter was covered on both ends, although at that point she only did ISI competitions. I think we started off that way because it was possible to enter the competition without a private coach or a program – they had test maneuvers to start off, so since that’s what she was learning in class, it made a lot of sense. But once she started working with her coach, he explained that in his experience, if a skater has done a lot of ISI competitions, they can get very used to coming in first place and it can be unnecessarily discouraging when they start doing USFSA competitions and find themselves in 7th place out of 10 or 12 skaters. Which may actually be VERY good considering the experience and level of their competitors. So I let my daughter get her two first place medals in ISI and then we switched completely over to USFSA. Some of her friends don’t understand but for us, it HAS been easier to look at it all in perspective this way. Her first competition last season she came in last place, because it was her first time at that level and she had two falls – the next time she skated it, she came in 6th or 7th and had NO falls. If she were really accustomed to coming in first, those would have felt like failures but because she knows the competition is harder in USFSA she can appreciate the progress and has started to look at things like 6th place out of 12 is top half!

But, that said – ISI is GREAT for the recreational skaters who don’t want to go to Regionals or farther. Plenty of little girls (and boys) just want to wear a costume and skate to the music. They don’t want to practice 5 days a week, they don’t want to skate in the morning, they don’t want to sacrifice their personal lives to skating. It’s great that ISI is there for them.

But it is weird when there is an ISI competition at our rink or in the area and for the next two weeks, the mothers (it’s always the mothers – rarely the kids!) go on and on about their skater’s first place medals, looking pitying on us moms who are so pleased with “9th place but she didn’t fall!!”, “4th place and she got to skate her short program!” or “last place but she just moved up to that level and by God, she just kept on going, even after the falls!” It’s a good lesson in keeping my eyes on myself and my skater and not on other people. Either they will move to USFSA and finally understand the difference or they will go on believing that their child has the talent (and the 1st place medals) to go to the Olympics and have just chosen not to. I just keep smiling and saying “Congratulations!!”
B

I started in ISI, and then once I got a private coach she made switching to USFS necessary. All of a sudden there were the moves tests, etc that I did not even know about. I personally would have preferred starting with USFS and staying there (I like their Basic program better than Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta). The rinks around here only offer ISI, but I am moving soon so this article was helpful. Now I know a lot about both organizations and their coaches.

Is there some sort of chart showing ISI and USFS skill levels? Like ISI Freestyle 2 is equal to which USFS level? How do you know which level to start out on when you switch organizations?
B

I started in ISI, and then once I got a private coach she made switching to USFS necessary. All of a sudden there were the moves tests, etc that I did not even know about. I personally would have preferred starting with USFS and staying there (I like their Basic program better than Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta). The rinks around here only offer ISI, but I am moving soon so this article was helpful. Now I know a lot about both organizations and their coaches.

Is there some sort of chart showing ISI and USFS skill levels? Like ISI Freestyle 2 is equal to which USFS level? How do you know which level to start out on when you switch organizations?
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

Because ISI is the recreational and USFS is the competitive track, there is a common misperception that USFS is “better” than ISI. In fact, although the skills at each level are set up differently, in fact the passing standards are identical. An axel is an axel is an axel. In fact, through the axel, even the testing is similar. The biggest difference is that ISI is tested at the rink or district level by coaches and USFS is tested by certified judges through the clubs.

I sent you a college course on the whole thing (it just got out of hand). Let me know what to do with all the useless ISI/USFS info that my brain regurgitated!
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

Because ISI is the recreational and USFS is the competitive track, there is a common misperception that USFS is “better” than ISI. In fact, although the skills at each level are set up differently, in fact the passing standards are identical. An axel is an axel is an axel. In fact, through the axel, even the testing is similar. The biggest difference is that ISI is tested at the rink or district level by coaches and USFS is tested by certified judges through the clubs.

I sent you a college course on the whole thing (it just got out of hand). Let me know what to do with all the useless ISI/USFS info that my brain regurgitated!
http://icemom.net Ice Mom

Hey, Xan!

Thank you for the college course! I need to get off my computer and go to my day job (whatever), but I’ll be changing this to Ask the Expert.

You get the emergency deadline award, Xan! Thanks!

Ice Mom
http://icemom.net icemom

Hey, Xan!

Thank you for the college course! I need to get off my computer and go to my day job (whatever), but I’ll be changing this to Ask the Expert.

You get the emergency deadline award, Xan! Thanks!

Ice Mom
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

B, there is indeed a an equivalency chart. It’s here: http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=events_eligibility_rules (scroll down)
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

B, there is indeed a an equivalency chart. It’s here: http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=events_eligibility_rules (scroll down)
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

I will stop hijacking Ice Mom’s site now. ;D
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

I will stop hijacking Ice Mom’s site now. ;D
Denise

How do we handle ISI vs. USFS? We do both and skate at 2 different rinks. One rink has a long established park and rec ISI skating school (which she has attended for 7 years) and the other rink, our USFS home club rink, is almost exclusively USFS. I like having our daughter take ISI group lessons separately from her private lessons because it keeps our private coach focused on USFS testing and competitions. Our private coach will also allow our daughter to do ISI competitions if she wishes (and she choreographs her ISI test programs) but her main focus is USFS. I know this is an unusual arrangement but it works for us. It’s only possible because we live in a larger city with many different ISI clubs and USFS clubs. In a smaller community, you probably wouldn’t have as many options.
Denise

How do we handle ISI vs. USFS? We do both and skate at 2 different rinks. One rink has a long established park and rec ISI skating school (which she has attended for 7 years) and the other rink, our USFS home club rink, is almost exclusively USFS. I like having our daughter take ISI group lessons separately from her private lessons because it keeps our private coach focused on USFS testing and competitions. Our private coach will also allow our daughter to do ISI competitions if she wishes (and she choreographs her ISI test programs) but her main focus is USFS. I know this is an unusual arrangement but it works for us. It’s only possible because we live in a larger city with many different ISI clubs and USFS clubs. In a smaller community, you probably wouldn’t have as many options.
http://icemom.net Ice Mom

Xan, please hijack this! You and Ice Coach are the experts for today, so this is great! Thank you!

Ice Mom
http://icemom.net icemom

Xan, please hijack this! You and Ice Coach are the experts for today, so this is great! Thank you!

Ice Mom
http://www.icecoach.net/ IceCoachBlog

Denise,

Is it possible for you to choose USFS or ISI? Or because each club near you is different you have to do both? It could be confusing to your skater to keep track of the different levels etc. Not to mention the coach. Just competing USFS for the last couple years we had to change Ice Girls program a lot between competitions. I can’t imagine adding ISI to that mix. Focusing on one could help your skater advance a little quicker.
http://www.icecoach.net IceCoachBlog

Denise,

Is it possible for you to choose USFS or ISI? Or because each club near you is different you have to do both? It could be confusing to your skater to keep track of the different levels etc. Not to mention the coach. Just competing USFS for the last couple years we had to change Ice Girls program a lot between competitions. I can’t imagine adding ISI to that mix. Focusing on one could help your skater advance a little quicker.
Denise

We don’t have to do both, we choose to do both. Our daughter doesn’t think it’s confusing at all. She’s been involved in ISI much longer than USFS (7 years vs. 3 years). She is very familiar with the requirements for the ISI test levels and she has a goal of passing FS10 eventually. But, she doesn’t want to limit her competition options to just ISI. She actually prefers USFS competitions and does ISI mostly to be able to show she has advanced thru the levels and has achieved a certain level of competence. I see ISI test levels mentioned in coaches’ bios a lot, at least in our area (Minneapolis).

The ISI skating school holds group lessons and they’re a bargain. As she advances thru the levels, there are fewer and fewer students in her classes, so she receives lots of individual attention. (As Ice Mom says, Learn to Skate is the best bargain around).

In ISI, she doesn’t need to keep track of the levels because the rink/skating school keeps track of all the testing and is responsible for the instruction. The staff of the skating school determines when you are ready to test. In fact, ISI suggests that you limit your testing to 1 rink, if possible. I don’t see how ISI instruction would limit her USFS advancement. They’re actually complementary. It’s not like the organizations are teaching different skills–as Xan said, an axel is an axel. They are actually very similar and we have found ISI tests to be more demanding than USFS tests, at least at the rink where we test ISI.

For the last 2 years, our daughter has had an ISI freeskate program and a USFS freeskate program. She practices (and is critiqued on) the ISI program at her group lessons and she practices her USFS program with her coach at her private lessons. During her practice ice, she practices what needs the most attention. She is currently working on FS6 and preliminary freeskate and they’re not that different. She’s mastered her axel (a FS5 element) and is working on perfecting her double salchow which is necessary for both preliminary freeskate competitions and FS6.

She skates synchro and her team competes in both USFS and ISI competitions. So, she has to continue with USFS moves tests to continue to skate synchro anyway.

Even though our USFS home club rink is predominantly USFS, skaters can work with their individual coaches on the ISI levels and test when they’re ready. One club coach is designated as the ISI test chair (the current test chair happens to be her private coach, so I don’t think her coach is confused by the ISI requirements.) Personally, I don’t think this testing situation is optimal, so we have chosen to continue with the ISI skating school where she started her skating instruction. I would rather take some pressure off her private coach by having her work on her ISI tests at a dedicated ISI program. This allows her private coach to focus on our daughter’s USFS tests and competitions.
Denise

We don’t have to do both, we choose to do both. Our daughter doesn’t think it’s confusing at all. She’s been involved in ISI much longer than USFS (7 years vs. 3 years). She is very familiar with the requirements for the ISI test levels and she has a goal of passing FS10 eventually. But, she doesn’t want to limit her competition options to just ISI. She actually prefers USFS competitions and does ISI mostly to be able to show she has advanced thru the levels and has achieved a certain level of competence. I see ISI test levels mentioned in coaches’ bios a lot, at least in our area (Minneapolis).

The ISI skating school holds group lessons and they’re a bargain. As she advances thru the levels, there are fewer and fewer students in her classes, so she receives lots of individual attention. (As Ice Mom says, Learn to Skate is the best bargain around).

In ISI, she doesn’t need to keep track of the levels because the rink/skating school keeps track of all the testing and is responsible for the instruction. The staff of the skating school determines when you are ready to test. In fact, ISI suggests that you limit your testing to 1 rink, if possible. I don’t see how ISI instruction would limit her USFS advancement. They’re actually complementary. It’s not like the organizations are teaching different skills–as Xan said, an axel is an axel. They are actually very similar and we have found ISI tests to be more demanding than USFS tests, at least at the rink where we test ISI.

For the last 2 years, our daughter has had an ISI freeskate program and a USFS freeskate program. She practices (and is critiqued on) the ISI program at her group lessons and she practices her USFS program with her coach at her private lessons. During her practice ice, she practices what needs the most attention. She is currently working on FS6 and preliminary freeskate and they’re not that different. She’s mastered her axel (a FS5 element) and is working on perfecting her double salchow which is necessary for both preliminary freeskate competitions and FS6.

She skates synchro and her team competes in both USFS and ISI competitions. So, she has to continue with USFS moves tests to continue to skate synchro anyway.

Even though our USFS home club rink is predominantly USFS, skaters can work with their individual coaches on the ISI levels and test when they’re ready. One club coach is designated as the ISI test chair (the current test chair happens to be her private coach, so I don’t think her coach is confused by the ISI requirements.) Personally, I don’t think this testing situation is optimal, so we have chosen to continue with the ISI skating school where she started her skating instruction. I would rather take some pressure off her private coach by having her work on her ISI tests at a dedicated ISI program. This allows her private coach to focus on our daughter’s USFS tests and competitions.
Lynne

My son started off skating ISI because it was cheaper and I didn’t know if he was going to stay interested in the sport. One thing I like about ISI is that in the programs, there are specific jumps, spins and a prescribed footwork pattern, called dance steps, for each level. In my opinion, this helps to level the playing field because every program has the same elements. Also, the competitions go from Alpha, the lowest level, through FS10, the highest. And, at least in my area, all the kids are encouraged to compete. My son’s first competition was at the Alpha level when he was just skating once a week in a group lesson. The draw back of being a boy in ISI is that my son usually skates “against the book” in competitions, and the book never makes a mistake, so he has gotten second place when he’s been the only skater at his level. He has been skating both ISI and USFS for a couple years now, and has become more serious about the sport. Because of that, this will be his last year skating ISI as he wants to concentrate on his USFS competitive skating. I don’t think one is better than the other, and you have good and bad coaches in both organizations. It really depends on which is available to you and what your skater wants to do with his or her skating. In my area, there are a number of skaters who skate both, which at the lower levels can give them a good deal of competition experience to help them learn how to deal with the pressure and anxieties that come with competing.
Lynne

My son started off skating ISI because it was cheaper and I didn’t know if he was going to stay interested in the sport. One thing I like about ISI is that in the programs, there are specific jumps, spins and a prescribed footwork pattern, called dance steps, for each level. In my opinion, this helps to level the playing field because every program has the same elements. Also, the competitions go from Alpha, the lowest level, through FS10, the highest. And, at least in my area, all the kids are encouraged to compete. My son’s first competition was at the Alpha level when he was just skating once a week in a group lesson. The draw back of being a boy in ISI is that my son usually skates “against the book” in competitions, and the book never makes a mistake, so he has gotten second place when he’s been the only skater at his level. He has been skating both ISI and USFS for a couple years now, and has become more serious about the sport. Because of that, this will be his last year skating ISI as he wants to concentrate on his USFS competitive skating. I don’t think one is better than the other, and you have good and bad coaches in both organizations. It really depends on which is available to you and what your skater wants to do with his or her skating. In my area, there are a number of skaters who skate both, which at the lower levels can give them a good deal of competition experience to help them learn how to deal with the pressure and anxieties that come with competing.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

The problem of differing requirements between USFS competitions and ISI competitions has been a serious one– serious competitors in USFS are not going to spend time putting together a special program just for ISI, and recreational skaters don’t want to take the time or the money to do so.

This is where the USFS Basic Skills competitions are great, because the levels requirements are very fluid, and there are no required elements. If you can’t do a loop, you don’t have to. You have to be a USFS member to compete (but you don’t have to join a club– there’s an unaffiliated membership category). Check individual competitions for levels and requirements.

ISI has just instituted a new competition category called “Open Freestyle.” There are three levels, again with much broader and more fluid elements requirements. The program lengths correspond with USFS program lengths. Your USFS program can be used in these levels with minor, if any, tweaks. If there’s an ISI competition near you, call the organizer and ask that they include this new category so that your USFS skater can compete. (You do have to be a member of ISI, and have taken the proper tests, but that can be arranged through your rink. ISI tests are free with the membership.) This is especially valuable in areas without a lot of USFS Basic Skills or Non-qualifying competitions, because it increases the competition experience available to your skater. (Plus they’re usually cheaper. And everyone gets a medal, which I think is great. Trust me, the kids know that 5th place in a flight of 5 is not good. But the medal takes a little sting out of it, and grandma will be thrilled.)

The Open Freestyle requirements are here: http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=programs_rule_revision (scroll down, then open the pdf link. I don’t know how to get a pdf to open in html, sorry.)

ISI membership is just $25 per year and includes all testing, basic accident insurance, a magazine subscription geared to young skaters, automatic eligibility to compete in ISI competitions anywhere in the world at your test level, and bells and whistles like stickers.

My daughter tested through both systems, in ISI through FS8 (roughly Novice level and my favorite set of elements; still my favorite program that she ever did) and in USFS Senior FS and Moves and International Dance (she’s still working on those).

Both systems have FS, Dance, Pairs, and Hockey tests. ISI also has both individual and team Synchro tests, and USFS has Moves and Solo Dance. USFS Synchro qualification is through the Moves and Dance tracks. USFS Basic Skills has about a million different curricula. I can’t keep track.

I would just like to say that any coach who disparages the program they are not in for any reason should be called on it. It’s one thing to so “My skaters don’t do the other program” and an entirely different thing to say “My skaters don’t do the other program because it’s stupid.” Ditto the moms. Heavens, ladies, chill. It ain’t world peace at stake.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

The problem of differing requirements between USFS competitions and ISI competitions has been a serious one– serious competitors in USFS are not going to spend time putting together a special program just for ISI, and recreational skaters don’t want to take the time or the money to do so.

This is where the USFS Basic Skills competitions are great, because the levels requirements are very fluid, and there are no required elements. If you can’t do a loop, you don’t have to. You have to be a USFS member to compete (but you don’t have to join a club– there’s an unaffiliated membership category). Check individual competitions for levels and requirements.

ISI has just instituted a new competition category called “Open Freestyle.” There are three levels, again with much broader and more fluid elements requirements. The program lengths correspond with USFS program lengths. Your USFS program can be used in these levels with minor, if any, tweaks. If there’s an ISI competition near you, call the organizer and ask that they include this new category so that your USFS skater can compete. (You do have to be a member of ISI, and have taken the proper tests, but that can be arranged through your rink. ISI tests are free with the membership.) This is especially valuable in areas without a lot of USFS Basic Skills or Non-qualifying competitions, because it increases the competition experience available to your skater. (Plus they’re usually cheaper. And everyone gets a medal, which I think is great. Trust me, the kids know that 5th place in a flight of 5 is not good. But the medal takes a little sting out of it, and grandma will be thrilled.)

The Open Freestyle requirements are here: http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=programs_rule_revision (scroll down, then open the pdf link. I don’t know how to get a pdf to open in html, sorry.)

ISI membership is just $25 per year and includes all testing, basic accident insurance, a magazine subscription geared to young skaters, automatic eligibility to compete in ISI competitions anywhere in the world at your test level, and bells and whistles like stickers.

My daughter tested through both systems, in ISI through FS8 (roughly Novice level and my favorite set of elements; still my favorite program that she ever did) and in USFS Senior FS and Moves and International Dance (she’s still working on those).

Both systems have FS, Dance, Pairs, and Hockey tests. ISI also has both individual and team Synchro tests, and USFS has Moves and Solo Dance. USFS Synchro qualification is through the Moves and Dance tracks. USFS Basic Skills has about a million different curricula. I can’t keep track.

I would just like to say that any coach who disparages the program they are not in for any reason should be called on it. It’s one thing to so “My skaters don’t do the other program” and an entirely different thing to say “My skaters don’t do the other program because it’s stupid.” Ditto the moms. Heavens, ladies, chill. It ain’t world peace at stake.
http://icemom.net Ice Mom

From Xan:

”
I would just like to say that any coach who disparages the program they are not in for any reason should be called on it. It’s one thing to so “My skaters don’t do the other program” and an entirely different thing to say “My skaters don’t do the other program because it’s stupid.” Ditto the moms. Heavens, ladies, chill. It ain’t world peace at stake. ”

This is what I mean: cheerleading v. poms, chess v. debate, marching band v. orchestra.

Both programs fill a niche, I think.

However, I do like the idea of parents understanding the difference between the two and making an informed decision about which one would work best for their skater’s goals.

Ice Mom
http://icemom.net icemom

From Xan:

”
I would just like to say that any coach who disparages the program they are not in for any reason should be called on it. It’s one thing to so “My skaters don’t do the other program” and an entirely different thing to say “My skaters don’t do the other program because it’s stupid.” Ditto the moms. Heavens, ladies, chill. It ain’t world peace at stake. ”

This is what I mean: cheerleading v. poms, chess v. debate, marching band v. orchestra.

Both programs fill a niche, I think.

However, I do like the idea of parents understanding the difference between the two and making an informed decision about which one would work best for their skater’s goals.

Ice Mom
http://www.icecoach.net/ IceCoachBlog

Denise,

Definately the learn to skate is a bargin and USFS vs. ISI will complement each other. When I was talking about confusion I was refering to competition only. Like you said your daughter has two programs ISI and USFS. For some skaters that could be a lot to keep track of. But it seems to be working good for you.

No one can say one program is better then the other or that a skater would advance faster in one program or the other. You learn the skills in both.
http://www.icecoach.net IceCoachBlog

Denise,

Definately the learn to skate is a bargin and USFS vs. ISI will complement each other. When I was talking about confusion I was refering to competition only. Like you said your daughter has two programs ISI and USFS. For some skaters that could be a lot to keep track of. But it seems to be working good for you.

No one can say one program is better then the other or that a skater would advance faster in one program or the other. You learn the skills in both.
http://www.icecoach.net/ IceCoachBlog

Question for Denise,

Did I understand your post right? At your rink they had Axel in USFS Freestyle 5 and a double Salchow required to pass Freestyle 6?

The USFS basic skills curriculum currently requires only an Axel walk through for Freestyle 6, and no double Salchow.

FS 6 requirements
http://www.usfsa.org/content/BS-overview.pdf

A. Alternating back crossovers to back outside edges
B. 5 step Mohawk sequence: clockwise and counter
clockwise
C. Camel/sit spin combination: 5 revolutions
D. Split jump/stag jump
E. Waltz jump/ ½ loop/Salchow
F. Lutz jump
G. Axel: walk through preparation, jump
Axel does not need to be landed to pass this test. Skater
should have an understanding of the mechanics.
http://www.icecoach.net IceCoachBlog

Question for Denise,

Did I understand your post right? At your rink they had Axel in USFS Freestyle 5 and a double Salchow required to pass Freestyle 6?

The USFS basic skills curriculum currently requires only an Axel walk through for Freestyle 6, and no double Salchow.

FS 6 requirements
http://www.usfsa.org/content/BS-overview.pdf

A. Alternating back crossovers to back outside edges
B. 5 step Mohawk sequence: clockwise and counter
clockwise
C. Camel/sit spin combination: 5 revolutions
D. Split jump/stag jump
E. Waltz jump/ ½ loop/Salchow
F. Lutz jump
G. Axel: walk through preparation, jump
Axel does not need to be landed to pass this test. Skater
should have an understanding of the mechanics.
Lynne

I just wanted to comment on the thought that skating both USFS and ISI might be confusing. It shouldn’t be any more confusing than a dancer taking ballet, jazz and tap. Or an equestrienne riding both hunt seat and dressage. At the age of 9 my son had his ISI FS4 routine, an ISI artistic routine, and his USFS pre-pre routine and he never got them confused.

Also, when Denise mentioned the Axel is an FS5 and the double salchow is an FS6 requirement, she was referring to ISI requirements.
Lynne

I just wanted to comment on the thought that skating both USFS and ISI might be confusing. It shouldn’t be any more confusing than a dancer taking ballet, jazz and tap. Or an equestrienne riding both hunt seat and dressage. At the age of 9 my son had his ISI FS4 routine, an ISI artistic routine, and his USFS pre-pre routine and he never got them confused.

Also, when Denise mentioned the Axel is an FS5 and the double salchow is an FS6 requirement, she was referring to ISI requirements.
Helicopter Mom

This is such an interesting topic – again, it’s nice to know I’m not the only one struggling with this stuff!! My daughter has done the “open freestyle” at our local ISI competitions but so far it’s not really caught on the with many of the USFSA skaters. It’s been good for us because it’s always nice to have another opportunity do do the program and wear the costume before it’s outgrown, but again there are not many skaters in her event then.

This also touches on something that I find fascinating – the differences between the USFSA test track and what you actually need to compete! As Denise said, what her skater is working on in ISI 5 and 6 is basically the same stuff as she needs to compete at preliminary level in USFSA. But the preliminary FS test requirements are way easier than that. If you didn’t have a good coach looking out for you, a skater could end up testing themselves completely out of competition! It’s really strange to me.

Also, back to ISI one more time – in our area, many of the ISI competitions are “showcase” and I swear right on the entry form it says the skaters will not be judged on their skating skills!!! I’ve never figured out exactly what they ARE being judged on… acting, props, costumes? But because it was so subjective, we stopped entering those. But the ones with open freestyle work because she can use her regular competitive program and presumably be judged on her skating skills.
Helicopter Mom

This is such an interesting topic – again, it’s nice to know I’m not the only one struggling with this stuff!! My daughter has done the “open freestyle” at our local ISI competitions but so far it’s not really caught on the with many of the USFSA skaters. It’s been good for us because it’s always nice to have another opportunity do do the program and wear the costume before it’s outgrown, but again there are not many skaters in her event then.

This also touches on something that I find fascinating – the differences between the USFSA test track and what you actually need to compete! As Denise said, what her skater is working on in ISI 5 and 6 is basically the same stuff as she needs to compete at preliminary level in USFSA. But the preliminary FS test requirements are way easier than that. If you didn’t have a good coach looking out for you, a skater could end up testing themselves completely out of competition! It’s really strange to me.

Also, back to ISI one more time – in our area, many of the ISI competitions are “showcase” and I swear right on the entry form it says the skaters will not be judged on their skating skills!!! I’ve never figured out exactly what they ARE being judged on… acting, props, costumes? But because it was so subjective, we stopped entering those. But the ones with open freestyle work because she can use her regular competitive program and presumably be judged on her skating skills.
sk8rmom.p

Thanks for this post. DS skated USFS from the beginning, so I only later learned about ISI. Our rink has predominantly USFS coaches, but we do have some overlap with ISI from a sister rink. It sounds like both programs are great, I don’t know how many higher level skaters are in ISI in our area, I’ll have to check it out at the next competition, but I think that most of the higher level skaters are USFS in our area.

I think that both programs are wonderful. There are kids that do better knowing that they will get a medal and there are kids for whom that doesn’t matter, they just want to compete. It’s great that there are two systems to choose from (or do both as the case may be )

What I do not like is coaches who do not inform their charges and their families about the other systems because they are afraid to lose them. I think that this is why there are moms out there that talk bad about the ISI system and hold a grudge, because they knew that their child wanted to compete in Regionals, Nationals etc, and thought that they were on track for that, but come to find out that they were not. That’s where the “wasted so much time in ISI” comes from. I think that if they were educated early about the two systems, they would know what is coming up later, and be able to be comfortable in their decisions.

I have heard very good coaches say the “spent too much time in ISI” thing in the same context. The family thought that they were on track for skating at the Regional, Sectional etc competitions, but found out after years and years that they were not and their child had to catch up by taking all the requisite USFS tests. IMHO they are saying that it’s a shame in that situation that the family wasn’t educated (by the responsible coach), not that ISI is a waste of time.

In fact though we were USFS from the beginning, we always knew that there was a recreational option where depending on my son’s temperament, he could win medals all the time if that was the best way for him to learn. I didn’t know what it was called at the time, or the details, but it was an option that we were given. (I thank heavens for our Ice Coach every day)

Lynne,
My son is USFS and has been for a long time, and still has competitions in which he has skated against the book. Ah well. It’s a challenge we are still learning to deal with. Good luck to your son!
sk8rmom.p

Thanks for this post. DS skated USFS from the beginning, so I only later learned about ISI. Our rink has predominantly USFS coaches, but we do have some overlap with ISI from a sister rink. It sounds like both programs are great, I don’t know how many higher level skaters are in ISI in our area, I’ll have to check it out at the next competition, but I think that most of the higher level skaters are USFS in our area.

I think that both programs are wonderful. There are kids that do better knowing that they will get a medal and there are kids for whom that doesn’t matter, they just want to compete. It’s great that there are two systems to choose from (or do both as the case may be )

What I do not like is coaches who do not inform their charges and their families about the other systems because they are afraid to lose them. I think that this is why there are moms out there that talk bad about the ISI system and hold a grudge, because they knew that their child wanted to compete in Regionals, Nationals etc, and thought that they were on track for that, but come to find out that they were not. That’s where the “wasted so much time in ISI” comes from. I think that if they were educated early about the two systems, they would know what is coming up later, and be able to be comfortable in their decisions.

I have heard very good coaches say the “spent too much time in ISI” thing in the same context. The family thought that they were on track for skating at the Regional, Sectional etc competitions, but found out after years and years that they were not and their child had to catch up by taking all the requisite USFS tests. IMHO they are saying that it’s a shame in that situation that the family wasn’t educated (by the responsible coach), not that ISI is a waste of time.

In fact though we were USFS from the beginning, we always knew that there was a recreational option where depending on my son’s temperament, he could win medals all the time if that was the best way for him to learn. I didn’t know what it was called at the time, or the details, but it was an option that we were given. (I thank heavens for our Ice Coach every day)

Lynne,
My son is USFS and has been for a long time, and still has competitions in which he has skated against the book. Ah well. It’s a challenge we are still learning to deal with. Good luck to your son!
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

Judging at any event is one of the most impenetrable aspects of competition. That’s why it’s so important to stress to a skater that the competition goal is always “personal best” and never “win”– just too many factors that you can’t control.

Both ISI and USFS judge both technical merit and lots of other stuff. Especially in ISI, the skills are just a very small part of the many things being judged. A great guide to judging can be found in the “Parent’s Corner” articles in ISI magazine, available for pdf download on line here: http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=publications_ris

Check out Page 28 of the summer 2009 issue for an article on judging. I can’t find a judge’s sheet here; I’ll try to remembers to grab one from the rink tonight and post all the categories that are included.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

Judging at any event is one of the most impenetrable aspects of competition. That’s why it’s so important to stress to a skater that the competition goal is always “personal best” and never “win”– just too many factors that you can’t control.

Both ISI and USFS judge both technical merit and lots of other stuff. Especially in ISI, the skills are just a very small part of the many things being judged. A great guide to judging can be found in the “Parent’s Corner” articles in ISI magazine, available for pdf download on line here: http://www.skateisi.com/site/sub.cfm?content=publications_ris

Check out Page 28 of the summer 2009 issue for an article on judging. I can’t find a judge’s sheet here; I’ll try to remembers to grab one from the rink tonight and post all the categories that are included.
http://www.icecoach.net/ IceCoachBlog

Ah got it. I didn’t realize that ISI had the same names as USFS IE FS 5 FS 6. We don’t have ISI at all around here.
http://www.icecoach.net IceCoachBlog

Ah got it. I didn’t realize that ISI had the same names as USFS IE FS 5 FS 6. We don’t have ISI at all around here.
http://www.icecoach.net/ IceCoachBlog

Xan,

I can get USFS Basic Skills Competition Judging sheets this weekend and we can compare!
http://www.icecoach.net IceCoachBlog

Xan,

I can get USFS Basic Skills Competition Judging sheets this weekend and we can compare!
Denise

Helicopter Mom,
I totally hear you on testing out of competition. That has happened to an acquaintance of my daughter–doesn’t have a consistent axel, no doubles and weak dance steps but has passed the pre-juv freeskate test. It will be a long time before she is competitive at this level (although she always competes Test Track instead of Well Balanced). Such a shame. I hope the skater doesn’t become discouraged and quit. Earlier, I requested a post on competing Test Track vs. Well Balanced and how it affects when one should attempt a freeskate test. Is that still planned Ice Coach/Ice Mom?
Denise

Helicopter Mom,
I totally hear you on testing out of competition. That has happened to an acquaintance of my daughter–doesn’t have a consistent axel, no doubles and weak dance steps but has passed the pre-juv freeskate test. It will be a long time before she is competitive at this level (although she always competes Test Track instead of Well Balanced). Such a shame. I hope the skater doesn’t become discouraged and quit. Earlier, I requested a post on competing Test Track vs. Well Balanced and how it affects when one should attempt a freeskate test. Is that still planned Ice Coach/Ice Mom?
http://icemom.net Ice Mom

Hi, Denise.

Thanks for the comment! I know that Ice Coach is working on the post, but I don’t know how far along she is on it. Ice Coach is planning her competition – single-handedly. It happens Saturday, so I think you might see something on it next week.

Ice Coach is on the ice with Ice Girl. I’ll ask her when she comes off.

Ice Mom
http://icemom.net icemom

Hi, Denise.

Thanks for the comment! I know that Ice Coach is working on the post, but I don’t know how far along she is on it. Ice Coach is planning her competition – single-handedly. It happens Saturday, so I think you might see something on it next week.

Ice Coach is on the ice with Ice Girl. I’ll ask her when she comes off.

Ice Mom
USFS coach

I am a USFS coach who works with skaters who also do ISI. I was hired by an ISI coach to work with her students on their moves in the field tests for USFS. I have no qualms about them doing ISI, as two are recreational skaters who enjoy doing artistic programs. I asked them about the different ISI levels, and what they had to do to pass each level. One girl, who lands a 1/2 turn cheated axel and has never landed a clean double, said that her coach had passed her at the level where she can do a double salchow. I hadn’t realized that coaches could test their own skaters, which I felt was interesting. This poor girl does not have clean jumps, yet believes she does because of a coach who ‘passed her’ just to say she had a skater at that level. I would love to see all levels at ISI be judged by real judges, not just the skaters’ coach.
USFS coach

I am a USFS coach who works with skaters who also do ISI. I was hired by an ISI coach to work with her students on their moves in the field tests for USFS. I have no qualms about them doing ISI, as two are recreational skaters who enjoy doing artistic programs. I asked them about the different ISI levels, and what they had to do to pass each level. One girl, who lands a 1/2 turn cheated axel and has never landed a clean double, said that her coach had passed her at the level where she can do a double salchow. I hadn’t realized that coaches could test their own skaters, which I felt was interesting. This poor girl does not have clean jumps, yet believes she does because of a coach who ‘passed her’ just to say she had a skater at that level. I would love to see all levels at ISI be judged by real judges, not just the skaters’ coach.
icebethy

and i thought the british system was confusing but we only have one test system for everyone including adults
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

While I don't believe that it is specifically in the ISI guidelines, most rinks will not permit a coach to do a formal test with their own skater. (By formal I mean the one that you register with ISI for the purpose of competing.) It has been an ongoing problem at every ISI rink I've ever worked in that coaches pass their own skaters through the class levels, leaving things like cheated jumps and toe pushes for the next class coach to clean up. And of course then the class coach looks either incompetent or villanous to the skater and the parent because they are telling the skater something different than their coach told them. You'll also sometimes find pity passes in class tests; coach has to make the judgment whether it's better to lose the skater or to just pass them up and keep them skating.

But kids with pity passes or, like USFS coach's situation, an unwarranted pass, are going to be outed at every competition they go to and eventually someone will clue them in. Coaches who do this are just ruining their own reputations.

At the test levels this generally doesn't happen with USFS, however, I see the same thing happen in class tests with Basic Skills. I've mentioned before that their are wide variations in passing standards between rinks, but the truth is, there are variations in passing standards from coach to coach.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

Coaches also waste time with USFS skaters. It's like they have this little conspiracy going, where they only tell some skaters about the real way to do it. I actually did not find out about the “qualifying” competitions until I had myself started coaching and learned about it through seminars. My daughter's USFS coach had basically stopped her training level at Juvenile (she aged out in fact, and ended up in Open Juv) and never told us about Regionals. The other competitive moms at the rink actually LIED to me when I asked them about this big competition every did each fall. Her coach would take her to endless non-quals; I managed to develop the impression that you had to build points or something at these things in order to be allowed to compete at the qualifying competitions. So a USFS coach can waste your time and money too.

Now with information so accessible on the internet I hope this sort of thing doesn't happen. What I wonder is why Skating magazine doesn't reduce the hagiography and include more information about stuff like this that parents might find useful. One of the biggest problems with skating culture is the assumptions about what everyone already knows.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

ISI judging criteria for regular LTS and free style programs are: skating skills (6 specific ones at each level), correctness (which judges things like crossovers, uncaptured moves and skating skills from other levels), duration (i.e. don't go over time), extra content, general overall, pattern (how well they use the ice surface), posture, rhythm.

Spotlight/Artistic/Interpretive events judge things like artistic impression, creativity, musical interpretation, costume/prop, duration, judges appeal, music and choreo, and originality.

So technically skills are not judged in the non-skill based events but trust me, the judges are looking at this.
Denise

Icebethy,
You too can join in the fun…ISI isn't just a US organization, it's internation!
Denise

Oops. I meant…it's interntional
Denise

OK, let's see if I can get it right this time…it's international.
If it's wrong, then I give up. Does this have spell check?
http://icemom.net Ice Mom

Great question, Denise.

If you go to the Disqus.com Web site, you can log in and edit your own comments.

Ice Mom
sk8rmomp

Wow! At first thought I'd have said that I didn't know that things like that went on, but on second thought, I can believe it. IMHO it seems like these coaches are violating some type of coaching ethics. And shame on the moms who keep the qualifying competitions a secret from others in their rinks. Don't they know that if their child is good enough, it doesn't matter how many kids compete, it's common decency to share information that will benefit others. Too bad parents get so competitive that they hurt other children in the process. Gee Whiz!

I am so sorry to hear that your DD was a victim of that type of coaching. How awful. I do hope that with blogs like these, more families will be come aware of the options and more kids will have an opportunity to participate in these higher level competitions if that is what they would like to do!
icebethy

yes but in the uk we have nisa and people only do isi if they are level 8/9/10 in nisa system to compete internationaly and no adults take these anyway but i feel nisa complecated enough with 10 skateuk levels (like basics) the 3 levels on passport to get you onto levels 1-10 nisa which each have field moves( like moves in feild) elements and then a free programe each are tests on there own and you have to pass all three to be that level
USFS coach

I agree with all of your comments. The problem is, this girl is now in college and teaching young skaters. If she hasn't learned things properly, it will carry right over to her students! Her comment to me the other day when working on novice moves was 'these turns are stupid anyway, why do they have to be perfect?” She never learned basic turns correctly and we've had to go back to the basics to fix them. I got mad at her and asked her if this was the way she is going to teach her students, and she said 'It's not like I'm going to be an Olympic coach or anything, so it doesn't really matter.” Aarrgh….
fgrsk8r

My coach has me as a member of both, I need to be a member of usfsa for my club and often compete it the bigger ISI comps and the smaller basic skills comps run based on USFSA. Many people at my club often badmouth ISI and how it works but as i have heard them talk about it they have no idea what they are talking about. So i dont see this as a problem and i recemend whatever the coach wants and is more famililer with.
Anonymous

I don’t have time to read the comments so if I repeat anything I apologize now. I will watch for follow-up posts to see if anything I said was incorrect, because I am sure something will be, just because I wrote it. LOL

We just finished our first season of competitive skating. Our rink is USFS, but my dd skated both USFS and ISI. Her coach does USFS here, and ISI at another rink.

The biggest thing I have seen between the two is that the coaches judge the events in ISI. This runs the risk of favoritism, and also makes your coach less available at the competition because she/he is busy judging.

What we liked about ISI were the fun events like ribbon and open pairs (USFS can have open pairs, but I have seen only one location that offered that event). And of the competitions we went to, synchro was bigger at the ISI locations.

My dd did better in the USFS competitions in her freeskate and compulsories (I forgot the ISI names for those events). Competitively speaking, she preferred the USFS. But for fun, she liked the ISI. In the future I think she is going to keep her freeskate routine for USFS competitions, and do the fun events (ribbon, open pairs, etc) for ISI. It was too time consuming to keep changing her routine to meet the different requirements ISI and USFS had – spent time changing her routine that could have been used to learning new elements. Note- this was not because of the coach, but because my dd was new to competing and wanted to do EVERYTHING! That is not happening next season – 6 competitions in 7-8 months and I am exhausted!

There does seem to be some “looking down your nose” at our rink when it comes to ISI, but I think that is because of misconceptions – I think they thought it was easier. We had several skaters that also did ISI, and they were able to keep up with the USFS-only skaters, and surpassed some. I think those misconceptions are now slowly changing.
bethalice

I don't have time to read the comments so if I repeat anything I apologize now. I will watch for follow-up posts to see if anything I said was incorrect, because I am sure something will be, just because I wrote it. LOL

We just finished our first season of competitive skating. Our rink is USFS, but my dd skated both USFS and ISI. Her coach does USFS here, and ISI at another rink.

The biggest thing I have seen between the two is that the coaches judge the events in ISI. This runs the risk of favoritism, and also makes your coach less available at the competition because she/he is busy judging.

What we liked about ISI were the fun events like ribbon and open pairs (USFS can have open pairs, but I have seen only one location that offered that event). And of the competitions we went to, synchro was bigger at the ISI locations.

My dd did better in the USFS competitions in her freeskate and compulsories (I forgot the ISI names for those events). Competitively speaking, she preferred the USFS. But for fun, she liked the ISI. In the future I think she is going to keep her freeskate routine for USFS competitions, and do the fun events (ribbon, open pairs, etc) for ISI. It was too time consuming to keep changing her routine to meet the different requirements ISI and USFS had – spent time changing her routine that could have been used to learning new elements. Note- this was not because of the coach, but because my dd was new to competing and wanted to do EVERYTHING! That is not happening next season – 6 competitions in 7-8 months and I am exhausted!

There does seem to be some “looking down your nose” at our rink when it comes to ISI, but I think that is because of misconceptions – I think they thought it was easier. We had several skaters that also did ISI, and they were able to keep up with the USFS-only skaters, and surpassed some. I think those misconceptions are now slowly changing.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

Bethalice, that’s a great solution to the ISI-USFS problem– to do the specialty events at ISI and then the standard events at USFS, or at ISI use the Open Freestyle levels. You and your coach should always call the ISI competitions you’re planning to participate in at the beginning of the season and ask that these types of specialty events be included. Many rinks will also throw them in at the last minute as unjudged exhibition events. I would love to see every competition, ISI or USFS hand out evaluations, or email a survey after the fact, to ask how to make the competition better.

I think that you are doing coach-judges a disservice when you suspect that ISI judging opens the door to favoritism. Judging guidelines take steps to avoid this, including:

• ISI rules state that you must recuse yourself for your own students (generally, the coach will not even offer themselves to judge during the event that their skater is in, so that they can stand at the door for the skater. If your coach is not either there, or providing a sub for the skater, you need to ask why not. This is a standard coaching service.)

• Every panel must include one Gold-test ISI judge. The Gold level test must be renewed every year.

• Most ISI events have a panel of 4: 3 judges plus a referee. Only the referee can award a penalty. Penalties are only given for over-time, missed element (different than poorly executed element) or illegal element (i.e. from a higher level) or broken rule (i.e. taking too long to set up props). For a penalty to be awarded, the entire panel of four must agree, and everyone must give the skater the same penalty mark (usually 2 points instead of 7). If your skater looked like the best, but came in low this is probably what happened. Sometimes kids just leave an element out, sometimes the coach doesn’t know what they are doing with the choreo, most often the music is too long. Your coach is allowed to ask the competition director if your skater had a penalty mark, and what it was for; generally you will not get to see the judging sheets. Don’t do this at the competition; wait until the next week. Better yet, videotape each performance and let the coach analyze it when your blood has cooled.

• Marks must be within a specific range depending on the number of skaters in the flight (for a flight of five, marks will be between 7.0 and 8.0) Scores are combined by an official accountant who has no contact with the judges, so it is very difficult to really knock a skater down on purpose. Judges are discouraged from comparing notes or talking about the skater on the ice during the competition. The bigger problem is differing passing standards from rink to rink. ISI will tell you that passing standards are the same throughout the US, but there are rinks known to “sandbag” their students, that is, their class level is much higher than their test level. Finally, judges rotate throughout the competition. Every panel will generally have 2 judges from the home rink and a third judge from another rink. Coaches bringing skaters to competitions are required to make themselves available to judge.

Wouldn’t it be great if the programs (which they charge you for, generally) at these events had a page describing all this? Keep dreaming.
http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/ Xan

Bethalice, that's a great solution to the ISI-USFS problem– to do the specialty events at ISI and then the standard events at USFS, or at ISI use the Open Freestyle levels. You and your coach should always call the ISI competitions you're planning to participate in at the beginning of the season and ask that these types of specialty events be included. Many rinks will also throw them in at the last minute as unjudged exhibition events. I would love to see every competition, ISI or USFS hand out evaluations, or email a survey after the fact, to ask how to make the competition better.

I think that you are doing coach-judges a disservice when you suspect that ISI judging opens the door to favoritism. Judging guidelines take steps to avoid this, including:

• ISI rules state that you must recuse yourself for your own students (generally, the coach will not even offer themselves to judge during the event that their skater is in, so that they can stand at the door for the skater. If your coach is not either there, or providing a sub for the skater, you need to ask why not. This is a standard coaching service.)

• Every panel must include one Gold-test ISI judge. The Gold level test must be renewed every year.

• Most ISI events have a panel of 4: 3 judges plus a referee. Only the referee can award a penalty. Penalties are only given for over-time, missed element (different than poorly executed element) or illegal element (i.e. from a higher level) or broken rule (i.e. taking too long to set up props). For a penalty to be awarded, the entire panel of four must agree, and everyone must give the skater the same penalty mark (usually 2 points instead of 7). If your skater looked like the best, but came in low this is probably what happened. Sometimes kids just leave an element out, sometimes the coach doesn't know what they are doing with the choreo, most often the music is too long. Your coach is allowed to ask the competition director if your skater had a penalty mark, and what it was for; generally you will not get to see the judging sheets. Don't do this at the competition; wait until the next week. Better yet, videotape each performance and let the coach analyze it when your blood has cooled.

• Marks must be within a specific range depending on the number of skaters in the flight (for a flight of five, marks will be between 7.0 and 8.0) Scores are combined by an official accountant who has no contact with the judges, so it is very difficult to really knock a skater down on purpose. Judges are discouraged from comparing notes or talking about the skater on the ice during the competition. The bigger problem is differing passing standards from rink to rink. ISI will tell you that passing standards are the same throughout the US, but there are rinks known to “sandbag” their students, that is, their class level is much higher than their test level. Finally, judges rotate throughout the competition. Every panel will generally have 2 judges from the home rink and a third judge from another rink. Coaches bringing skaters to competitions are required to make themselves available to judge.

Wouldn't it be great if the programs (which they charge you for, generally) at these events had a page describing all this? Keep dreaming.
Anonymous

I love the evaluation idea – I think I will suggest that to our board for our upcoming competition in September.

I did not mean to imply there was purposeful favoritism. But people are human. I know a coach cannot judge their own students, but I was talking about other coaches judging students from their rink. It is a natural inclination to prefer those you know best, and that can be in the subconscious when judging. Favoritism can also happen in the USFS, but the judges are usually a bit more removed from knowing the skaters. Sorry if I am not making myself clear – have been teaching Math all morning and now have a headache.

As for availability of the coach – my dd’s coach was always there to put her on the ice, but there were times she missed part of the warm-up because she was judging, then had to make a mad dash to the door after turning in her judging sheet. When I said the coach may be unavailable, I did not mean during the actual event, but in between for pep talks that may be needed, or calming of nerves (of the skater or parent. LOL). That was not our problem (DD freaks before we get to the competition), but I saw it happen to others, mostly younger skaters or those new to competing. I realize this is no one’s fault – many skaters, many events, and too few coaches to judge.

Every ISI competition we went to, we got free programs – rather, they were in the skater bags. I don’t know if others had to buy them since I just used the one my dd received. At USFS all programs had to be paid for – no freebie for the skaters.

You forgot to mention one BIG difference (or maybe I missed it) – PRICE! ISI competitions are much cheaper!
bethalice

I love the evaluation idea – I think I will suggest that to our board for our upcoming competition in September.

I did not mean to imply there was purposeful favoritism. But people are human. I know a coach cannot judge their own students, but I was talking about other coaches judging students from their rink. It is a natural inclination to prefer those you know best, and that can be in the subconscious when judging. Favoritism can also happen in the USFS, but the judges are usually a bit more removed from knowing the skaters. Sorry if I am not making myself clear – have been teaching Math all morning and now have a headache.

As for availability of the coach – my dd's coach was always there to put her on the ice, but there were times she missed part of the warm-up because she was judging, then had to make a mad dash to the door after turning in her judging sheet. When I said the coach may be unavailable, I did not mean during the actual event, but in between for pep talks that may be needed, or calming of nerves (of the skater or parent. LOL). That was not our problem (DD freaks before we get to the competition), but I saw it happen to others, mostly younger skaters or those new to competing. I realize this is no one's fault – many skaters, many events, and too few coaches to judge.

Every ISI competition we went to, we got free programs – rather, they were in the skater bags. I don't know if others had to buy them since I just used the one my dd received. At USFS all programs had to be paid for – no freebie for the skaters.

You forgot to mention one BIG difference (or maybe I missed it) – PRICE! ISI competitions are much cheaper!
Apace

A couple of things…. Basic Skills goes through FREESKATE 6 rather than Freestyle 6. Also, CER’s were due July 1, not in June. Also, coaches whose skaters are only competition in Basic Skills competitions and are not doing any offical USFS tests are not required to go through the Certification process through USFS. Once the skaters begin to test or skate Test Track will the coach have to do the Certification process. Same goes for CER’s right now. Talk is that CER’s will be required out of all USFS/PSA coaches, but right now they are not.
Apace

bethalice- USFS Basic Skills competitions allows coaches to be judges as well. It is recommended you have at least one offical judge on a panel, but sometimes that is extremely difficult. We hosted a BS competition this past summer where all we had were coaches judging. We set the panels so no coach was ever judging a skater from their club/rink, let alone their own student!
figureskaterchick

that girl is gonna do the same thing her choach did to her, to some hopeful kid and its gonna mess them up the same way. shes in novice and cant do doubles and axels right? pitifly horible…
Leightaylor98

Can you be in either ISI or USFS to go to regionals?
http://icemom.net icemom

Regionals is for USFSA skaters.