Ask the Expert: Working with Judges

I have found being involved with the coordination/running of our test sessions has been an amazing way to be more comfortable with judges – they are just everyday people with many interests besides skating. However, I must admit I actually go out of my way for them to not know who my skater is and I avoid conversation around skating so most conversation is very general chit chat. I have asked them why they become a judge and what they needed to do to become a judge, but that is about it.

As I am one of the board members who often transports the judges to and from rink/hotel/airport, what topics are “safe” ground to talk about with skating? Also is it acceptable for them to meet my skater prior to or after the test session? It would make life much easier to have her travel with me on these trips, but I have always wondered if that is okay?

Great interview! I'm a little shocked that parents actually approach judges in any negative way. I couldn't imagine the chutzpah it would take to do something like that, and to what end?

Also, a good reminder that – for better and worse – judges are human and if my skater is behaving badly off ice, it could effect a judge's perception of her on ice. There are tears and frustrations and disappointments to be sure, and I think everyone understands that – but I don't think it does any harm to remind my skater that she is representing not only herself but her coach, her club, and USFSA both on and off the ice. This is sometimes a tough lesson, especially with pre-teens and teens who sometimes struggle with the notion that the world doesn't revolve around them. But again, we're not in this just to try to gain medals, but also for the valuable life lesson that skating – or any sports – afford. Behaving like a champion both on or off the ice, win or lose, will carry over in positive ways to all parts of life. Just like learning the stupid axel, with emotions and behavior there are good days and bad days – the trick is to always encourage and set a goal for more and more champion-like behavior.

Ooh, Sk8nln. Good question!

You know, somehow I missed the part of the interview where Allison says “volunteer, volunteer, volunteer, volunteer!”

It's a beautiful thing. Wish I had recorded it. I would play it over the rink's sound system all the time. She's right, though: volunteering is a great way to not only help the club and become more involved, but also to learn more about the sport.

I tell you: I'm one heck of a good ice monitor. And scones. Geez. I make a ton of scones for judges.

Hey, Jozet.

You know, I missed catching this on the recording, too, but Allison said that the gals who make life miserable for judges, skaters, and everyone around them usually don't last long in the sport.

Is it ugly to say that gives me hope? If I can't beat 'em maybe I can outlast 'em?

As a parent to a child (7 years old) who recently competed as the youngest in the group (PrePre with axel) with age range up to 15 years old, I notice that little skaters were at definitive disadvantage. The child would execute the same jumps as the older skaters, but overall I am not sure that children should be compared on their skating skills to much older skaters. It can be very discouraging for little ones. What is your advice for a parent of a younger child ? What things to consider when entering competition of a certain level? And finally, do the judges take age into consideration when judging an event.

Volunteering, reading and asking my skater's coach has made finding our way through this maze much easier. Although each time we make just a bit of progress, the maze gets deeper and more complicated:-)

I also play the music for our test sessions (most do not want this job because you have to sit in the cold rink all day). It worth the cold toes and down jacket in the middle of summer to gain the knowledge – the way our rink is configured I am located very close to the judges.

A club, big or small, can never have too many helping hands.

Hey, ggmom.

You know, I'm not a judge, but I've talked about the age phenomenon with some people at the rink. In a mixed group of 7- to 15-year-olds, the little kid definitely has everyone rooting for her.

You must be so proud of your skater! An Axel at age seven!

Thanks Ice Mom! Well … the scoring was not that favorable, so it prompted the research on my part. It seems like ISI is more likely to separate between different ages, but not USFSA, where skill is judged independently. Therefore, putting very young kids that got the skill at the “execution” disadvantage. If that is true, then parents need to be prepared that their kid is not going to place for a while, unless they skate down the level. This is my observation so far as a parent of a little (not for long I guess:)) kid.

I am not a judge either but this is just my take.My kids have ALWAYS been with older skaters.We live in a small state skate wise and its either all together or not much of a comp.Both with ISI and USFSA.
We feel its made our skaters stronger mentally to skate with older kids.They have learned from an early age its not about the medal . You can just do your best.
Yes. some older kids have easier time, better muscles ect. But I will tell you both my kids have placed higher than older kids lots of times. Its not a given older kids will place higher.

Some things are out of your hands and that is one of them.Just remind your skates its about the experience and the journey not the medal!!
Hope that helps!

Thank you, angelfromalaska for sharing from your experience! I hope that she will learn the mental toughness from all of these, other then loosing her confidence ( would be my concern). I do feel that it is out of my hands, but still find it hard to teach her to just enjoy an experience, as it is a competition. And I always thought that the point of the competition is a medal. But I am starting to see how the medal mindset can get you going in a wrong direction. This might be a topic of all new discussion!:))

It's great that you are starting to re-examine your attitude or belief towards medals. I think that when you change your mind-set, it will benefit your child now and in the future for all things skating and non-skating. The thing most successful athletes and individuals have in common are that they focus on the journey, not the outcome (medal). It helps keep perspective and helps keep disappointment at bay.

That said, there are some children who need to have the medal and are devastated if they don't get it, and this could be personality or developmental stage. That is why there are ISI competitions where every skater earns something. It's really about what your child needs at this stage in her development.

As an aside, as time goes on, and your child goes up the levels, it can become the opposite, the younger skaters actually score better than the older ones due to skills. Older skaters might have started later and do not have as solid skills as your younger skater.

Your DD might surprise you, my DS was the last one I thought would understand that it's not the medal that counts, but we talk to him periodically and live the mantra that the “journey is the key” and he is fine with it. At the same time he still wants the medal, but not to the exclusion of enjoying the journey and learning from the experience. LOL, on the lighter side his IceCoach says, “if you want medals, then go to the store and buy some”, (DS is much older than your DD and he only says it before a competition to establish the goal and the perspective. He would never say that after a poor performance.)

IMHO I think it's very important for parents not to have expectations of medals or placement of any kind. It puts too much pressure on the child who is already trying to do his/her best. I always tell my IceBoy that he has done all the hard work before this competition, now it's time to go out and have a great time doing what he loves to do. Show everyone how much he loves to skate.

We all know that skating is subjective. We also know that when anyone is doing what they love to do, they are going to do their best. So I figure, why not have a blast and let everything else take it's course.

Sorry, I got off topic LOL. Anyway, I am totally so protective of my child, more when he was younger, but unfortunately or fortunately, life throws curves and each of those times is an opportunity to teach. Competition is truly one of those times whatever the outcome

Great information! Thanks for the interview!

I am surprised that there was this grouping, unless there were not enough skaters to make an age group. I agree that it can be discouraging and I would suggest talking to your coach about this. Putting a 7 year old against someone 15 doesn't make sense.

Remember, judges are looking at execution and quality, not at age. There are no special considerations for age; it is what the skater can do. A 15 year old has a definite advantage because of size, strength and coordination. I would chalk this up to a learning experience, praise your skater for what she accomplished against much older skaters and then make sure that there is a proper age division within a group. Sometimes that can't happen. If that's the case, prepare your skater in advance and use it as an opportunity to perform in front of judges in a competition setting. After all, this really isn't about medals at that level; it is about “putting miles” on and gaining experience. That's easier said than done, I know.

My experience has not been this at all- my 9 yo skates preliminary and she is always getting killed by cute (teeny skaters that are really not better- they are not always younger either, just teeny)

I do agree with this, and sometimes, at competitions where there are multiple flights of the same level, I find that my dd's flight (she is 9 and thus far still usually among the younger) is MORE competitive than the ones with the older girls.

What do a judge feel when they tell a skater they did not pass their test? What would they say also to a skater who gets nervous at competition or test and can always do clean programs but at the competition or test they dont and they dont pass because of that?

Yogi Berra once said 90% of the game is half mental. LOL. It's really true. Figure skating and practically any sport have a huge mental component. There are excellent resources around for parents and older kids to read about mental preparation specific to sports, though the carryover into academic test taking, public speaking, Life, etc is enormous.

Specific to FS: The Inner Champion by Choeleen Loundagin
Mind Body Conditioning for competitive Figure Skaters, by Linda Ross
Not sport specific: Mind Gym: An Athlete's guide to Inner Excellence by Gary Mack

For parents of young skaters, you can read the books and then translate the concepts into words your child can understand. There are many teachable moments, especially with tests and competitions, even bad days at the rink.

You have lots of common sense skills already from your own life. Use stories of when you didn't get what you wanted, didn't pass something, didn't make the sports team. How you coped with it. Children relate better to stories, and it's less like preaching.

My IceBoy was really upset when he didn't pass a certain FS test, which meant he missed being at a qualifying level for Regionals, something he had been working towards for a long time (he was 12). It was very hard for him. I let him grieve, then when he was ready, we came up with a plan for the next year. I have to say that it was the best thing that could have happened to him. His skating improved leaps and bounds, and he has a different perspective on “no pass” on skating tests and also in life.

His IceCoach is always a great support in these times as well. Ask your coach about what to say to your child. They can put it into perspective for you and this will help you talk to your child.

Bottom line, if you know it is a problem for your child to perform under pressure, seek out ways to help her/him deal with this. Don't do it just before they need to go to a test or competition, do it regularly. Create practice opportunities for them to skate under pressure when nothing is at stake, like exhibitions or ice shows. The more successful skates your child has when people are watching, the more experience they can draw on to help remember how it felt to skate well that they can use for visualization when the real thing comes along.
Good luck!

Ggmom:
I have noticed just the opposite in our region. The USFS competitions we have attended at the Basic Skills through Pre-Juv levels are divided by age, with the youngest being in the first group/s. It seems fairly consistent that your younger skaters (or smaller), or first groups, are the more skilled and even faster. I have an opinion as to why this is, but nothing scientific, necessarily. I've even found myself (pessimistically) thinking that a skater was subconsciously given credit for looking younger due to stature and impressing the judges with, wow, look what this little skater can do. haha. Okay. So I admit it. I do, on occasion, let negative thoughts creep in (bad mom, I know). But I have even heard coaches refer to “the cute factor”.
I'm with another commentor that I think it's wonderful that she has learned the axel at such a young age! Though there are a lot of things, real or perceived, that can get you down, don't let it show. And Angel is right (hi, Angel! Laura here!!), it's not all about the medals. I stress that my daughter work hard, do her best and enjoy the journey. Everything else is out of her hands. As long as she does those three things, she will never have to ask “what if”. She can only do what she can do. It's a hard concept at times to subscribe to, but really the best way to deal with the ups and downs of this sport. In the end, the lessons she learns here will help shape who she becomes in all the best possible ways.
Good luck!!!

I tested about a month ago and did not pass. I am not sure, my jumps were not 100% clean and usually at competitions I underrotate them, I can do them clean sometimes but not always i am not sure of it. The only thing I know is that off the ice I can even complete a triple jump and off the ice I am having difficulty with landing my doubles clean what should I do or how should I do it. What should I do when I present my test again? How could I get them clean fast? Because I know I am capable of doing it and I have the strenght to do it, since I already do it off the ice. What can I do so that whe I pass my next test I have everything perfect 100% good, and without any doubt that i am going to pass. It really felt terrible to not pass a test and I don’t want that to ever happen again. I dont regret it but i learned from it so that next times I prepare better. Please help and thank you, I love your website.
I am an intermediate figure skater meanwhile..

I tested about a month ago and did not pass. I am not sure, my jumps were not 100% clean and usually at competitions I underrotate them, I can do them clean sometimes but not always i am not sure of it. The only thing I know is that off the ice I can even complete a triple jump and off the ice I am having difficulty with landing my doubles clean what should I do or how should I do it. What should I do when I present my test again? How could I get them clean fast? Because I know I am capable of doing it and I have the strenght to do it, since I already do it off the ice. What can I do so that whe I pass my next test I have everything perfect 100% good, and without any doubt that i am going to pass. It really felt terrible to not pass a test and I don't want that to ever happen again. I dont regret it but i learned from it so that next times I prepare better. Please help and thank you, I love your website.
I am an intermediate figure skater meanwhile..

What can I do if I presented a figure skating test about a month ago and did not pass, due to my jumps, that they are under rotated,- at every competition they have given me my doubles under rotated, but I know I can complte them and that I have, i just dont think that I do them clean always they are almost always underrotated, but it is weird because off the ice I can even do a triple jump and complete it (or sometimes its a quarter or even less than a quarter off) considering its a 3ple jump. But if I can do this how come I under rotate my doubles on the ice? I know i can do it, but i dont know why they are like this, currently while practicing them (know that Im more focused on doing them clean) I land straight without the check, I think they are clean, but sometimes when I do them normally they are totally wrong or different. What can I do to make my jumps clean, I can do them but how can I do it on the ice? fast? How can I have them good and 100% good for my next test, so that they have no doubt its not clean that when I go on that test I know I can do everything perfectly and that every single one of my jumps is clean. To go 100% with every element good and sure of myself because I do them good all the time, and actually clean. What can I do, and when should I try, go or aim to competing and testing for the next level again and actually pass the test with pure 9′s and 10′s that everyone knows that I am going to pass without a doubt. Please I would appreciate your help, thank you, and by the way I love your website:) I am an intermediate level figure skater.

What can I do if I presented a figure skating test about a month ago and did not pass, due to my jumps, that they are under rotated,- at every competition they have given me my doubles under rotated, but I know I can complte them and that I have, i just dont think that I do them clean always they are almost always underrotated, but it is weird because off the ice I can even do a triple jump and complete it (or sometimes its a quarter or even less than a quarter off) considering its a 3ple jump. But if I can do this how come I under rotate my doubles on the ice? I know i can do it, but i dont know why they are like this, currently while practicing them (know that Im more focused on doing them clean) I land straight without the check, I think they are clean, but sometimes when I do them normally they are totally wrong or different. What can I do to make my jumps clean, I can do them but how can I do it on the ice? fast? How can I have them good and 100% good for my next test, so that they have no doubt its not clean that when I go on that test I know I can do everything perfectly and that every single one of my jumps is clean. To go 100% with every element good and sure of myself because I do them good all the time, and actually clean. What can I do, and when should I try, go or aim to competing and testing for the next level again and actually pass the test with pure 9's and 10's that everyone knows that I am going to pass without a doubt. Please I would appreciate your help, thank you, and by the way I love your website:) I am an intermediate level figure skater.