Teaching All Double Jumps Before the Figure Skater Reaches Puberty

I’ve heard it. I think it’s great if you can do it. But I’m pretty sure puberty hits everyone at some point (whether you have your doubles or not) and it causes havoc for a lot of skaters. Maybe it’s easier to deal with losing the timing for your double axel because you know you used to be able to do it, but I think it’s probably hard either way. So unless your skater is going to retire before 13, I’m pretty sure you don’t actually outsmart Mother Nature. On the bright side, the muscle strength that comes with puberty is supposed to off set the center of balance issues… Now as for the emotional turmoil… I’m pretty sure you need perfect hair and make up to get through that. Or at least I’m sure MOMMY does!

Erm, no real idea as I didn’t skate pre-puberty BUT in my opinion I’d hold off, teach some jumps but not push them all, that way the skater just learns the jumps with his/her new body. Afterall, bad enough having to deal with the ‘joys’ of adolesence without losing all your doubles too

I used to coach women’s gymnastics, and we certainly would be teaching double somersaults by around 13 (when girls’ power to weight ratio is at lifelong highest)!! Some lost it during puberty and never got it back. But most could apply the body memory to regain it over time. Few girls will ever learn a double for the first time after puberty. Sad but true. It’s harder to do, therefore harder to have enough success to build enough muscle memory.
I wouldn’t be surprised if similar things were true of the big power skills in other sports like FS.

My dd (10 yesterday) has learned all of the them, except double axel, between January and May of this year– she has even tried them in competition to varying success. She tends to be overly cautious and under rotate the ones she is not as confident with so as not to fall on her bum but of course that isn’t good for her score! Anyway, her coaches are doing this because we are the tall family, and they fear quick height changes in the very near future and would rather try and keep them then learn them during that.

I’ve heard all sort of things about double jumps and have no idea where to separate fact from fiction from “could be true for most/some skaters, but not all”.

The attitude changes, the sudden tears now from my once sunny skater, the “oh my gosh, EVERYONE is WATCHING me” days…yeah…toddlers are a piece of cake in comparison. I also notice some female skaters going through a sort of hunched forward “I refuse to stick out my chest” phase, once they begin to grow a “chest”.

As far as height goes, my skater had a 3 1/2 inch growth spurt last year, and I did wonder if that was the cause of everything suddenly going haywire at times.

Mirai Nagasu said she had to “relearn” her new body after a growth spurt. Lucinda Ruh was doing triples and had to relearn all her jumps from singles after a huge growth spurt to 5’9″. Growth seems to make a difference and it seems like it could be – for girls especially – a bigger adjustment to rotate and balance with longer limbs and now some curvy bits making the body mot quite as “aerodynamic” as before.

And it is true that in puberty, while boys can now walk around the block and put on muscle, girls can have a tougher time of it. In his book “Warrior Girls” (which primarily looks at the higher incidence of ACL injuries in female soccer and basketball players, but also provides a studied and unapologetic – while still being pro-female athlete – look at the physiological differences between young male and female athletes), author Michael Sokolove writes that during puberty, one of the roles of estrogen is to add fat while testosterone is telling the body to grow muscle. Girls surely still can grow muscle; they just have to work harder at it. And while girls are more flexible thanks to a dose of estrogen (hello Biellmann), Sokolove’s research says that during puberty, the enhanced ligament laxity can also make joints less stable and have a “negative impact on neuromuscular control, coordination.” Anyway…the book is a good read for all parents of sports girls, and although not all experts agree with all Sokolove’s conclusions, there is enough there to support the fact that at least some young female athletes need to train and approach conditioning differently (although not less rigorously) than male athletes because of the effects of puberty on a growing body.

I will also add that being 44 years old is a whole different ball game when it comes to skating. I’m just trying to get my waltz jump before I need a walker.

I have no idea what it’s like for girls in the sport. I could see it going both ways as far as attitude goes. Either the “I had this before so I can do it again”, or “I had this and now it’s gone and I’ll NEVER be able to do it again”. All 3 of my boys are so different I have no idea what puberty will be like with my skater, other than hard. He’s already started with the attitude and eye rolling and arguing, and we’re just starting to touch the tip of the iceberg. I was talking with a woman at the rink a few weeks ago and her son went through a growth spurt and was frustrated because he lost all his doubles. As far as not being able to learn these things post-puberty, I think every skater is different. Johnny Weir didn’t start skating until he was 12 years old. Granted he’s an exception to the rule, but I don’t think there are any hard and fast rules.

I do think it affects girls and boys differently- puberty that is.

I have always heard stuff like this… “Watch out if they grow too tall, it can mess up their jumps” – “Watch out if they grow um…. too much of a chest, that will throw off their balance” etc. etc. I have also heard from a former female skater who made it to Nationals one year that they will try to get many girls who are young and have triples to take some kind of hormone thing that slows their growth and stops them from developing, etc. I’m not certain of course but this may explain why some of these girls who are Novice and Junior level ate ages 13 – 15 still look like they are 10. We know of a girl that is nearly 14 and has all her triples who hasn’t visably grown in years, she wtill looks 9 or 10! I would be worried about long term affects of taking that hormone thing though…. My own daughter will be 15 in Dec, and we are a tall family, I was 5’6″ by age 12 – she grew a lot last year and it did “mess up her jumps” a little, she was like an awkward giraffe for awhile. Her jumps would be fine – then she would grow – then have trouble with one or two jumps- then get consistant again – then grow again – you get the idea, it was a cycle for about 2 years! Now she seems to have stopped growing, the jumps have been a lot better, regularly doing clean program run-throughs with 6 doubles, yay! And just this week the double Lutz – double Loop combo is back in action… She hadn’t been doing those mostly out of laziness! More than the growth the worst part is the emotional/mental aspect of becoming a teen – jumping is at least 70% mental – so if they are having a emotional-grouchy day, well a lot of quailty jumps may not happen! And as I mentioned the “teen laziness” kicks in too, some girls drift away from such a hard sport during this time. As for curviness, my daughter is now 5″6″ but hasn’t developed too many curves, but a friend of hers has… The friend has ummm…. generous curves and some teen laziness thrown in too… Previously this girl could do up to double flip now she can barely do an axel. :~( I do feel bad for the taller/more developed girls though, it is a lot harder to jump when you are tall – I’ve heard Scott Hamilton go on about this exact topic on TV during Nationals one year. He said that it is very hard for tall girls and that if everything about the jump doesn’t go EXACTLY right that it will not end well…. I have to agree, we have found that to be true with my daughter!

Oh, I also forgot to say, we know a coach from the Ukraine (I know, who doesn’t?) and he said that the expected boys to have all their triples by 13! Work hard boys….

There are a lot of curvy and tall skaters out there who do very well. Tonya Harding and Irina Slutskaya are not stick figures, and there is another Senior level skater from one of the Eastern European countries – can’t remember her name – who makes Dolly Parton look like Kate Moss. (Well…maybe not Kate Moss, but she’s a curvy skater and always does really well.) YuNa Kim and Miki Ando are 5’4″. Kiira Korpi is 5’5″. Carolina Kostner is 5 ’6 1/2″. Alexe Gilles is 5’8″. Wisdom says that taller skaters can’t spin as well, and yet one of the best spinners in the world – if not the best – is Lucinda Ruh: 5’9″.

Yes, it might take more work, but it’s not impossible. I mean, skating is pretty “impossible” to begin with. I think we need to keep pointing out to our kids that if this is what they really want to do, they can work hard and find their own limits before other people start placing them on them. I’m sure they will come upon some mean-spirited someone who is trying to be “helpful” by telling them that they aren’t right for this sport because of x, y, z.

It sounds like your daughter has the right attitude and drive to go as far as she possibly can, no matter how tall. Congrats on the combo! That’s pretty amazing!

I totally agree– though every time my dd’s coach sees her 16 year old sister (over 6 ft) he winces a little. He always tells her that soon enough EVERYONE will get out of her way and when she does a great spin, or a great jump, it looks SERIOUSLY impressive. She always tells me Lysacheck is tall, so if he can do it, so can she.

Speaking as a mom of a skater who “lost” almost all her doubles this summer, I think there may be some truth to this, for some skaters. My daughter did go through this about a year and a half ago when she was just turned 12. She had a growth spurt, about 4-5 inches over 4-5 months, and had trouble with everything. For a while it was her jumps, then they’d come back, but she couldn’t spin… then everything seemed to be back, and the attitude started! She landed double flip and double lutz the same night a year ago September and then a week later, fell on double lutz and fractured her tailbone. That set her back for quite awhile. This summer was the worst, though, as she lost her confidence, because of the adolescent attitude, I think. She was intimidated by the older skaters (all nice girls), she was just intimidated because she’s a perfectionist and doubted herself compared to them. So her doubles disappeared. This was, I think, worse, as we had endless arguments, tears, tantrums, etc. and me threatening to take her home if she wasn’t going to at least try. Somehow, she’s worked it out and her jumps getting very good now, almost has double lutz back. She’s hoping she’ll land it this week. So I think that confidence is everything in this sport and affects how they deal with all the rest of it. I try to tell her that there will always be setbacks and she has to keep looking at the big picture. And, to keep in mind her favorite saying… if figure skating was
easy, they’d call it hockey!

I know the super curvy skater you are talking about – I think it’s Elena Gedevenshili – I’m sure I’m butchering the spelling – but she is very curvy but still a good skater, good point! And I think Alexe Gilles is the skater that got Scott Hamilton talking about tall girls in skating at that nationals, and she skated very good that year. I think tall girls just have to be willing to work harder and be patient through the growth spurts. I also think there is a big difference in jump consistancy depending on how often they skate during the growth spurts, if they are skating 5 days a week and working hard it may go a lot smoother than if they are only skating 3 days a week… Also once a judge told us they’d rather see normal height girls than the little 9 year old looking munchkin types! :~)

I believe your talking about Katarina Witt

I was thinking of Elena G, but you’re right, Katarina Witt is also curvy. (Is there a better word than “curvy”? lol.)

Absolutely! Just like every child is different, whether they are boys or girls, boys also differ from girls how puberty will affect them.

Physically, in general boys do more vertical growth than curving out, and with jumping, it’s all about staying close to your central axis. Even though more height and length in the limbs affects timing, it is easier to deal with than changing your center of gravity and growing away from your center axis as girls do.

I was looking for words, believe me! I thought about developed, but Ice Girl, the stick that she is, finds that offensive. Round sounds like a weight problem. Busty and chesty sound crude.

What do you think I should use? Is curvy offensive?

Ice Dad is totally into Katarina Witt. He didn’t believe that Katarina Witt and I are friends on Facebook and was very impressed. Then he started to ask me to message her about posting photos. You know, photos. Of her curves.

Go back down into your cave, Ice Dad.

Amen. The way we train our children (boys and girls) during their peak growth velocity (growth spurts) is very important. There are so many non-reversible injuries that can happen during this time that can end a promising skater’s career too soon.

As parents, we are advocates for our children. Don’t be satisfied with old school trainers that train pre-adolescent/adolescent girls the same as boys and who aren’t sticklers for good form. Get educated and be proactive.

I’ve heard this too (in the context of girls). If your child is lucky enough to skate long enough before puberty, it’s great. I have heard mostly that the “fear” factor hits hard at adolescence. I’ve also heard the girls and changing shape reason as well.

At our rink I know a few girls that have successfully learned their doubles since hitting adolescence. They look wonderful. Maybe it took longer, I’m not sure, but they did it.

My IceBoy started late, so didn’t have all of his doubles before the puberty monster hit, but he has them now. However, boys have some different issues than girls. The center of gravity thing is not as bad for sure since boys tend to grow vertical rather than out. It wreaks havoc with timing, since last year I think my IceBoy has “relearned” his jump timing every monday because he grew over the weekend. LOL.

One thing he would like to happen is that the muscles start to grow, but that hasn’t happened yet. That would help compensate for the longer limbs and taller body. But again, these are pretty trivial to what girls go through.

As for attitude, the fear factor in jumps is not as apparent as the competition anxiety. It’s very interesting seeing him start to take responsibility for his own attitude and work ethic. Such a learning process. He has his days, I didn’t realize that boys got moody during adolescence too, not having any brothers.

The whole process is exciting to watch (when I’m not tearing my hair out)…

Ha Ha totally not surprised!

Oh, here you can hire her for an apperance at Ice Dad’s next B-day. Only $10,000 – $20,000. Wonder why the difference. I suppose it depends on what she is hired for like speaking or skating, marketing.

http://www.athletepromotions.com/athletes/Katarina-Witt-appearance-booking-agent.php

The thing is, it all comes back to physics. I know. Physics. Eww. But really, in terms of jumping you need height and fast rotations in the air. When you are tiny, it takes less energy/strength/force to get up high in the air, because you don’t weigh as much. Also, when you are a stick, you have less wind resistance and can get faster rotations (of course, I am assuming good arm/leg positions, etc. that are all important for this to work too). When you grow these things change. You get taller, but really, you weigh more. And your weight is in different spots. And yes, you get stronger, but not immediately. So at first you don’t have any extra strength to get up in the air and gravity is pulling you back down more than it did before. With boys this is pretty much it with the growing up/not growing out thing. With girls you grow out. Even if it is ever so slightly you have more drag in the air when you try to rotate. So combine not as much height with slower rotations = painful tailbones.

Of course, it is always possible to overcome this. Training, practice, and desire are important. Getting stronger will give more height. Practice (skating, dance, etc.) will give you a feel for your body to get proper positions/better rotations. Desire has to come from the skater though. I think for a lot of skaters knowing that they used to be able to do it, and just trying to find that feeling again is probably helpful. They aren’t really starting from ground zero, and so might master the doubles faster than someone just learning. And at the age when (in general) the “competition” becomes more obvious, that extra bit of quick achievement might give them confidence. For newer skaters they don’t go through the “loss” phase, but they also fall harder during the learning phase. And biologically the body is at the point where it starting to prepare for the next generation and it wants to preserve itself for that. And so the body wants to avoid things that feel bad. This can lead to the fear, which can lead to no doubles. Of course, individuals can overcome this and there is always the oddball 12 year old genius skater who is brilliant and born to skate. But those are rare. So yeah, is difficult to say “in general” because it really does depend on the individual. If a skater really wants it, they will get it. It’s just that some of them might have to fight the forces of nature a little harder than others.

If I had $10 – $20,000 extra, I’d just throw it at the ice, I’m sure! Too bad, Ice Dad.

Yes. The Canadians are/have adopting this philosophy, and I’ll state it this way: Train all doubles WITH THE CORRECT TECHNIQUE during the acquisition phase (8-11 roughly). The emphasis is mine. They’re completely overhauling their training system to do so. Or, in truth, the rest of Canada is catching up to Quebec which has been doing this for a long time. To illustrate, I point out Cynthia Phaneuf, who had a beautiful triple lutz, won the national title, grew at least a foot and got it all back (oh, might quibble on the flip she pops), but she was able to beat the puberty monster. She’s skated in the shadow of Joannie Rochette so didn’t have to do all this in the spotlight.

The correct technique. This is the tough part because easy technique learned from the quick rotation jumper does not always carry through.

No, I don’t think it’s offensive. But I’m not always known for my tact and good taste, so I like to check in once in a while.

As someone who grew up as a stick figure, I’m so very happy to finally have a few curves.

“Busty” and “chesty”…lol. My mom says that. See? I didn’t grow up with a good example. I hate “round”. When I lived in South Philly, there was a store that sold kids school uniforms and listed on their sign outside is said “We have husky and chubby sizes.” Both those are pretty cringe-worthy, as well.

Which all leads to this…I have no idea which way my daughters are going to go when it comes to developing. I was a stick; but there are women on both sides of the family who are, yes, bigger chested. I’d love a discussion or post sometime on proper foundation garments for female skaters both for practice and competition. I’m clueless.

And whoops – I didn’t remember that you had already used the word first in your initial post. My bad!

That’s brilliant, Jozet! Proper foundation garments…let me write that down…for Ice Girl I made a strapless swimsuit out of flesh-colored Spandex and hand sewed a bra inside. I really, really hate to hand sew. Anyway, she likes it, but it’s not perfect: it shows if a dress is too low cut in the back.

I’ve started pick stitching a bra into the lining of dresses. That’s a real pain in the butt, too.

I’ll see what I can do to find an expert. Thanks!

The things that happen to girls at puberty that affect skating technique are a higher center of gravity and increased body fat percentage. The idea that you have to have all the doubles before puberty is beyond “common opinion;” at this point it has the force of received wisdom. In the world of competitive skating at a national level, I’ll concede it, but not because of physics; rather because if you’re not nationally competitive with all doubles and even some triples by the age of 12 to 14, you’re going to run out of time. Cost, aesthetics, injury, changing interests all compete with those doubles. It has nothing to do with how you’re shaped. Talent is talent; it doesn’t change just because you grow up.

That said (and I’m in so much trouble for saying this), giving up on a girl because she doesn’t have her doubles by the age of 11 or 12 is just lazy coaching. Furthermore, once you get the first one or two double jumps, the others follow quite quickly as a rule. You can find techniques and training regimens to compensate for changes in center of mass, body shape, strength, and attitude. Track stars don’t stop running because their boobs bounce, they just buy better bras. The coach and skater just need to be creative and committed and need to work with all the options available to skaters, from national competition, to synchro, to ISI. Girl’s too tall? Carolina Kostner or Megan Oster (ha- they rhyme!). Too ‘fat’? Emily Hughes. Too curvy? Katarina Witt. No flexibility? Michelle Kwan.

being little makes it easier to jump & if you have all of your doubles chances are your going to stay tiny, which is good for skating. some times you dont stop growing, like my friend she has grown about an inch a year for the past 3 or 4 years, we used to be the same heigth but now shes about 2 inches taller & it really throws off her jumps, but its easier for her to get her jumps back because she knows how they are sapouse to feel

are you talking about elene gedvanishvilli?

im 5’6 maybe 5’7 & my jumps suck, us tall girls all we pretty much have are footwork & spins because its super hard to jump with all this heigth lol

“Track stars don’t stop running because their boobs bounce, they just buy better bras.”

This would be the most amazing advertising line for sports bras! Love it!

Xan, you crack me up!

I don’t believe in this either. I know that there was this woman at my rink who started in her 20′s and is landing doubles, the same goes for late starters, like some girls are sixteen, just now landing double’s, so I say it’s all about wheter the skater can commit to ti nad if the coach is going to be the type of coach the skater needs, otherwise, pushing the skater hard enough in training, not the same coaching the skater had when learning her waltz jump.
Talent IS talent, and talent doesn’t change with age. Surely you may have more trouble with learning them as opposed to a skater who was landing them when she was 10, but it is by no means impossible. Anybody who learns a double before puberty still is going to have trouble when they reach a different height and try to land a double, thing like that STILL need to be worked out.
All in all, it’s more about wheter you can get the rotaion and land it properly, rather than learning a double before 13.